Kitabı oku: «Abridgement of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856 (4 of 16 vol.)», sayfa 110

Tuesday, March 24

Limitation of Claims on the Government

The House proceeded to consider the report of the Committee of the Whole on the following resolution:

"Resolved, That it is expedient to make provision by law for the payment of the following descriptions of claims, to wit: – 1. Loan office certificates; 2. Indents of interest on public debt; 3. Final settlement certificates; 4. Commissioners' certificates; 5. Army certificates; 6. Credits given in lieu of army certificates cancelled; 7. Credits for the pay of the army for which no certificates were issued; 8. Invalid pensions; 9. Lost or destroyed certificates – notwithstanding any statute of limitation to the contrary, under such restrictions as shall insure payment only to the original claimant, his heirs, executors, or administrators."

The resolution was agreed to, and referred to the Committee of Claims to bring in a bill pursuant thereto.

French Spoliations

Mr. Pitkin said that he held in his hand a statement and representation, on oath, of Captain Samuel Chew, of New Haven, in the State of Connecticut, which he would beg leave to present to the House. Captain Chew states, that he was supercargo on board the brig Thames, and on the 19th of January, 1812, sailed from St. Ubes, bound to New Haven, with a cargo of salt and fruit; that on the 2d of July following, the brig was taken possession of by a French squadron, consisting of two frigates of forty-four guns each, and a sloop of war of sixteen guns, under the command of Commodore Forretin, and that he was told by the officer boarding him, that the brig would be burnt the next morning. That the officers of the squadron informed him that they sailed from Nantes on the 8th of January. That on board the French vessels were the crews of the ship Asia, from Philadelphia, bound to Lisbon, and of the brig Gershom, of Duxbury, last from Boston, bound to Oporto, both laden with corn and flour. That the officers of the squadron informed him, that, on the 17th and 23d of January, they had captured and burnt the ship Asia and brig Gershom. He also states that he inquired of the Commodore the reasons of burning them, and was informed by him that he had orders from the Government to burn all American vessels sailing to or from an enemy's port. That, on the 3d of February, the Commodore put on board the Thames the captains and crews of the vessels burnt, being thirty-seven in number, to be landed in the first port, and that, on the 16th day of July, he landed them at St. Bartholomews. Captain Chew states likewise, that when the Commodore released the Thames, he gave him a document or writing, subscribed with his own hand, and written in the French language, and which is annexed to his statement. This document contains a list of names of the men composing the crews of the vessels captured; it also states that they were captured on voyages from Philadelphia and Boston to Lisbon, laden with grain and flour, by the division under the command of Monsieur Forretin, Member of the Legion of Honor, and that they were captured in pursuance of the instructions of the Minister of Marine and the Colonies.

Mr. P. said that this statement, with the original document annexed, in the French language, and under the hand of the commodore of the squadron, had been forwarded here, for the information of the Government; that the character of Captain Chew was such as to entitle him to full credit wherever he was known. Believing, therefore, as he did, in the truth of these statements, and that the document annexed is genuine, he thought it his duty to present it to the House for their information. The House, after hearing them read, can dispose of them by referring them to the Secretary of State, or otherwise, as they may think proper.

The papers presented by Mr. Pitkin having been read,

Mr. McKim moved that they lie on the table until time should be afforded for the arrival of those persons in the United States whose testimony might confirm the facts stated.

Mr. Pitkin also wished them to lie on the table, that they might be examined by gentlemen, and receive that attention to which the importance of their contents might entitle them.

The papers were accordingly ordered to lie on the table.

Thursday, April 2

Virginia Military Bounty Land

Mr. Nelson, from the committee to whom the subject had been referred, made a report, concluding with the following resolution:

Resolved, That provision should be made for securing to both officers and soldiers of the Revolutionary army of Virginia on that establishment, in the land or sea service of the said State, the county lands which were promised to them, either by law or resolution of the said Commonwealth, out of the lands not otherwise appropriated, and lying on the northwest of the river Ohio, within the Virginia cession, to be of good quality, according to the true intent and meaning of the promises made on the part of Virginia; and that if a sufficiency of good land, within the meaning aforesaid, cannot there be found, that these bounties shall be satisfied out of any other public lands of the United States not otherwise appropriated.

The report was referred to a Committee of the Whole.

Monday, April 6

Publication of Secret Proceedings

Mr. Grundy, from a committee which had been appointed while the House was sitting with closed doors, made the following report:

The committee, to whom was referred the resolution directing an inquiry to be made, whether there has been any, and if any, what violation of the secrecy imposed by this House, during the present session, as to certain of its proceedings, have, according to order, proceeded in said inquiry, and beg leave to state, that, under the authority with which they were invested by the House, they have caused to come before them four witnesses, whose testimony on oath is as follows, to wit:

Charles Prentiss states that he furnished to the editors of the "Spirit of Seventy-six," a paper printed in Georgetown, the paragraph giving an account of the proceedings of the House of Representatives, while sitting with closed doors, on the subject of the embargo; and he further says, that he did not receive the information, or any part thereof, which enabled him to write said paragraph, from any member of Congress or officer of the House. Upon being interrogated, he states that he received the whole of his information from Nathaniel Rounsavell, one of the editors of the Alexandria Herald; that he received it on Wednesday late at night, and he asked of Mr. Rounsavell whether the injunction of secrecy had been removed. Rounsavell replied that he had not inquired. On Thursday morning the witness spoke to some of the members on the subject, and from their conduct he was satisfied that the injunction of secrecy had not been removed; notwithstanding which, the witness sent the paragraph above alluded to, to the editors of the Spirit of Seventy-Six on Thursday.

John M. Carter and James B. Carter, editors of the "Spirit of Seventy-Six," state that they received from Mr. Prentiss, in writing, the statement which appeared in their paper; that they received no information on the subject from any member or officer of the House.

Nathaniel Rounsavell, upon being interrogated, says he composed the paragraph which appeared in the Alexandria Herald of Friday last, containing a statement of the secret proceedings of the House of Representatives upon the subject of the embargo; that he on Wednesday night, after the adjournment of the House, derived a part of the information, on which he was enabled to give the detailed account, from the conversation of members of the House with whom he accidentally fell in company; that he was acquainted with the members, and they with him; they knew he was present; he partook in some degree in the conversation.

Question by the committee – From the conversation of what members did you collect the information of which you have spoken?

The witness refused to answer the interrogatory.

Question 2 – At what place was the conversation held?

Witness refused to answer.

Question 3 – Have you seen the members alluded to, or any of them, since you first appeared before this committee on Saturday last?

Witness likewise refused to answer this interrogatory.

Whereupon it is ordered by the committee that the Sergeant-at-Arms detain said Rounsavell in his custody until the pleasure of the House of Representatives relative to the conduct of said witness can be ascertained.

After the report was read, Mr. Grundy offered the following resolution for consideration:

"Resolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms be directed to bring the said Nathaniel Rounsavell to the bar of the House, there to answer such questions as may be propounded to him by the Speaker, under the direction of the House."

Much desultory discussion took place as to the mode of proceeding in this case, the form of the proposed order, its conformity to precedent, &c., in which Messrs. Pitkin, Lacock, Sheffey, Troup, Tallmadge, Grundy, Fisk, and Widgery, took part. This discussion resulted in the proposition of a preamble to the motion, by Mr. Grundy, reciting the grounds of the order.

The motion was then agreed to.

On motion of Mr. Grundy, the select committee were then discharged from the further consideration of the subject.

On motion of Mr. Grundy, it was resolved that several interrogatories contained in a paper which he offered to the House, should be proposed to the witness.

Mr. Burwell suggested the propriety of allowing this person counsel; but withdrew the suggestion, on its being remarked, that this person appeared before the House in the character of a witness, not a criminal, and that it was not usual for a witness to appear by counsel.

Mr. Rounsavell was then brought to the bar of the House by the Sergeant-at-Arms.

After some hesitation on the part of the witness to take the oath required, he was sworn, in the usual form of oath administered to witnesses.

The first interrogatory agreed to by the House was put to him by the Speaker, in the following words: "From the conversation of what members did you collect the information of which you have spoken in your deposition before the committee?"

To this question the witness answered in these words: "I refused to answer that question when before the committee, and I continue steadfast in that refusal."

The witness was ordered to withdraw, and the Speaker reported his answer to the House; having deemed it unnecessary, on his refusal to answer the first, to propound any other of the questions.

Mr. Seybert, after stating his indisposition to encroach on the rights of the citizen, which, however, must yield to the superior rights of the nation, which required them to act in this case, suggested the propriety of recommitting this person to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until further order should be taken by the House, and preventing him in the mean time from communicating with those from whose conversation he might have derived his information. With this view he offered the following resolution:

Resolved, That Nathaniel Rounsavell be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until further order, and that in the mean time he be precluded from all intercourse or conversation with any person or persons other than the Sergeant-at-Arms.

The question on striking out so much of the motion as precludes the witness from conversation with any one unless in the presence and hearing of the Sergeant-at-Arms, was decided as follows – yeas 62; nays 22.

The question was then stated on the motion as just amended, viz:

"That Nathaniel Rounsavell be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms until the further orders of the House."

The question was taken on the resolution, and it passed by a very large majority.

Tuesday, April 7

Publication of Secret Proceedings

A letter was laid before the House from Nathaniel Rounsavell, the witness now in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms. The letter disclaims any intention to have violated the respect due to the House by the publication which he had made; it declares that the conversation which the writer had was inadvertent, as he believes, on the part of the members who partook in it, and entirely without any intention on their part, as he believes, to violate the order of the House; that he had been refused by the committee an opportunity to explain his testimony; and that his only motive for refusing to answer was, that if he were to answer the question as propounded to him, it might have the effect of criminating those who had committed no crime, and from whose conversation, but for previous and subsequent knowledge, he could not have ascertained that an embargo had been the subject of discussion, &c.

Mr. Smilie said it was in his power, he believed, to make a statement to the House which would procure a discharge of this man. Had the original motion succeeded yesterday, he should then have risen and stated what he was now about to say, because he had been determined that the man should not suffer. I do believe, said Mr. S., that the substance of the information which Mr. Rounsavell published in his paper, he did derive from conversation of myself with others; whether he got other particulars from other members, I know not. The circumstance was this: The night the embargo law passed this House, I met with a member who was absent, and ignorant of what had passed. Upon meeting with this gentleman he inquired of me what had been done? I briefly told him, and I have reason to believe Mr. Rounsavell was in such a situation as to hear what I said. Having made this statement, I will make a few other remarks. I had a seat in Congress when each of the former embargoes under this constitution were laid. The mode in which they came before the House was in those cases such as to enable us to keep them secret. In every instance except the present, the first intimation relative to the embargo came from the President to the House in a confidential shape, and the doors were immediately closed. What was the fact in this case? The measure originated in the Committee of Foreign Relations. It was proposed there that it should be kept secret; when a member of the committee rose and declared he would not be bound – he would not keep it a secret. This destroyed at once the efficacy of any such determination on the part of the committee; we might as well have discussed the subject with open doors as with closed doors, had it not been from respect to the Message of the President recommending a different course. What was published in the Herald, therefore, was of no importance; when the subject of discussion was known to all, it was of very little consequence to know who was chairman, and who spoke, and how many voted. If the House must have a victim, and it appears to me some gentlemen would be very willing to have one, I offer myself in the room of this man; he has suffered too much already. The quo animo constitutes the essence of every crime; it cannot then be supposed, after the warm support I have given to this measure, that I could have any unfriendly intention towards it. I well know the powers of this House; and I know the limits of those powers. The House will take such steps as they think proper. I have taken my ground; I am prepared for the event. He would further observe that in relation to the suspicion of members having influenced Rounsavell to refuse to answer, that he had not seen him from the time of the conversation he had stated until after his appearing before the committee and refusing to answer.

Mr. Smilie was asked to name the member of the Committee of Foreign Relations, to whom he had just alluded, and replied that his name was no secret – it was Mr. Randolph.

Mr. Calhoun said that the member of the Committee of Foreign Relations, (Mr. Randolph,) to whom allusion had been made, not being in his seat, he would state how the fact just stated had occurred in the committee. That gentleman stated (said Mr. C.) that he had doubts of the power of the committee to compel him to secrecy; but the gentleman also stated that he had just returned from Baltimore, where he found the British Consul possessed the knowledge of an intended embargo, and that a great commercial house was acting on it, and therefore he did not feel it his duty to keep it secret. I, sir, was the one who made the motion that our proceeding should be confidential. After the statement made by the gentleman from Virginia, that he should feel it his duty to proclaim the fact, combined with other circumstances, I did not feel so strongly the obligation, and the motion for secrecy was waived. Under the impression that it was no longer a duty to confine the knowledge of this transaction to the bosom of the committee, I mentioned it to the gentleman from Boston and other commercial cities, that they might be aware of the transaction; I did it from a sense of duty, that they might be as well informed on this head as other members of the House.

Mr. Quincy rose to state the circumstances as they had occurred on the day alluded to, and he had it in his power to do so, because, anticipating that some difficulty might arise, and wishing to relieve himself from blame, he had on the morning after the occurrence, committed it to paper, as follows:

"March 31, 1812.

"Memorandum. – Mr. Calhoun, of South Carolina, a member of the committee of Foreign Relations, this day informed me that 'the Committee of Foreign Relations had come to a determination that an embargo should be proposed to Congress for its adoption to-morrow.' I asked him if I was at liberty to mention this as a fact from him. He replied that 'I was at liberty.' He said 'that the gentlemen of the committee were generally of opinion that the subject should be kept secret. But Mr. Randolph,²⁶ one of the committee, had declared that he would not consider himself bound to any such obligation. The committee, therefore, had thought that it was but fair to give an equal chance to all the gentlemen in Congress. And that he informed me of the fact, as a member from a commercial town, in order that I might communicate it to my mercantile friends.'

"I soon after went to him and asked him, 'whether the embargo would come as an Executive recommendation.' He replied, 'I do not deem myself authorized to answer that question.'

"I find the same information has been communicated by other members of the committee to various members of Congress.

"JOSIAH QUINCY."

Mr. Seybert said, after what had been stated by his colleague, it was very evident that the information which had found its way to the public had been inadvertently communicated by a member; and he hoped the House was satisfied with the result. When he made the original motion, yesterday, for detaining this person, Mr. S. said he was desirous of a modification of it; he had not contemplated so rigorous a confinement as it would perhaps have comprehended. He was now perfectly satisfied, and considered it his duty to move that the witness be discharged from the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms.

Mr. Roberts was opposed to discharging the witness until he had explained a sentence of his letter to the Speaker, in which he had asserted that he was not permitted to explain his testimony. The fact was, that the committee had acted with the greatest patience and liberality towards the witness, and extended to him every indulgence in their power, and his assertion was therefore unwarranted.

Mr. Macon, in the absence of Mr. Randolph, thought proper to remark that he had heard of the embargo in Baltimore, and the report had brought him here. It appeared, then, it was no secret at all. This was the first instance, indeed, Mr. M. said, in this Government in which a committee had undertaken to make a secret for itself. No such power of a committee was recognized by the House. Being confidentially referred by the House to a committee, they must in that case act on it in the same manner; otherwise there was, perhaps, no obligation. He did not believe there was a man in the nation who would be farther from doing a dishonorable act than the gentleman from Virginia, whose name had been called in question.

Mr. Seybert said, after what had passed, he presumed every one was satisfied there was no occasion to pursue the inquiry, and as the witness had submitted to the authority of the House, he moved the following resolution:

"Resolved, That Nathaniel Rounsavell, now in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms of this House, for a contempt of its authority in not answering the questions propounded to him by order of the House, having submitted to answer, and purged himself from the contempt, be discharged from said confinement."

The question was then taken on Mr. Seybert's motion, and carried without opposition; and the Sergeant-at-Arms was ordered to discharge the witnesses from confinement; and then, on motion, the House adjourned until to-morrow.